Fic rec

[girlyswot]

If you happen to (a) be a fan of Dorothy L. Sayers and (b) be outraged by the Open Source Boob Project, then you must run to read this story by nineveh_uk NOW!

Comments

[megan29.livejournal.com]

Huh? Can you give some more context? What's the Open Source Boob Project - other than a source of outrage, it seems, for lots of people?

Btw, I tried to read "Busman's Honeymoon", and couldn't get through it. It seems there are lots and lots of references, some of them more obscure than others. Are they to previous books? (I didn't read any of them). Or are they to well-known pieces of English literature, which sadly are arcane to me? I found even the language hard to follow - I rarely encounter a word I don't know, but there were many in this book. Not to mention the whole paragraphs in French (luckily, I know enough to understand), and Latin (which I don't know enough of). I found the entire exercise frustrating and tiresome. So if you can illumine my poor non-English self as to the proper way to read/decode this book, I will give it another try (heck, I bought the book, so I should at least read it once!) :-)

[girlyswot.livejournal.com]

Sorry you had a bad experience with Busman's Honeymoon. I really wouldn't recommend it as your first foray into Sayers precisely because it is the last of her novels and there is a lot of backstory presumed.

I'm afraid, though, that the references to both well-known and more obscure literary works are a feature of all her novels, as is the tendency to slip into French or Latin from time to time. In one early book the key clue to solving the murder came in a letter written in French and her editors really had to fight to get her to provide a translation. Sayers does expect a lot of her readers as you found, in terms of their language and literary skills. BUT you can certainly get the gist of what's going on without knowing all of these. I still have moments when I'll be reading something and suddenly realise, 'Oh that's what Peter Wimsey meant'. Faint canaries? Still no idea. For me that's part of the fun - it makes you feel very clever when you do work things out.

I'd start with the first Peter/Harriet story - Strong Poison and see how you get on with that. I do think that once you get into her world it becomes easier to deal with all the 1920's slang and the literary silliness. But they're not everyone's cup of tea and I can't imagine how difficult they must be for a non-English person, since they are so very, very English.

I'll see if I can find a link to the other thing.

[megan29.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the comments on Sayers. I'll try to read Strong Poison (though this one I won't buy anymore! store reading it will be, until I decide whether I can read this author at all). I did follow the gist of what was going on in Busman's Honeymoon (the first 100 pages, at least), but it required too much effort, and I get bored too easily. :-) I *was* shocked that she wasn't translating the French part, not even paraphrasing it, but luckily I read it well enough to understand. Still, she's a brave author to expect so much of her readers.

I read a bit through the link to that Boob Project thing, and I'm not sure which I am more: amused or outraged. I'll tell you one thing: I am a feminist who finds the current standards of decency in the English world too restrictive. It is unfair that men get to go shirtless when the temps reach 100F, while women have to suffer bras and blouses. In general, I sunbathe topless in Europe wherever the laws of the country permit it. So I read that page with a slightly sympathetic and open mind. Still, all in all, it was a sleazy picture that emerged. My philosophy is "you can look (and salivate) but you can't touch." And if that bothers men, tough! :-)

[girlyswot.livejournal.com]

Try a library.

Also, Sayers was writing 60 or 70 years ago in an England when most ordinary people didn't have a lot of books and she could expect her readers to be those who had had a similar education to her. I can't imagine a publisher letting her get away with it today.

[tdu000.livejournal.com]

I want (if "want" is the right word) to know what the Open Source Boob Project is too. I haven't read Dorothy L. Sayers for years. I always enjoyed them more on the radio than actually reading them. I'll have a look later.

[girlyswot.livejournal.com]

I've added a link.

[alkari.livejournal.com]

A very creditable attempt at Sayers-style, with a group of twenty-something friends! Though I agree - a French bon mot or two, or the odd sneaky reference to John Donne, would have really made it.

[girlyswot.livejournal.com]

I disagree. French bon mots and sneaky references to Donne are Peter's thing. And Harriet-and-Peter's thing. Not Harriet-and-her-friends' thing.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

a French bon mot or two, or the odd sneaky reference to John Donne, would have really made it.

I only do those when it's earlier in the evening ;-)

[alkari.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't know. Harriet seems to expect others of her education to understand her literary references, so - assuming those friends date from university days - I would quite happily expect a few French terms. As you already noted, the readership when Sayers was writing was assumed to have her type of education, when French was almost de rigeur for anyone to be considered properly educated and 'literate' in the widest sense. And a working knowledge of Latin and/or classical Greek was also not a rarity. I take your point about Donne, though, but I could still see Harriet tossing in references to authors and expecting her friends to be au fait with them.

[girlyswot.livejournal.com]

But she doesn't. Even if these friends are aware of the literary references, those aren't the kinds of conversations they have in the books. These aren't university friends - that's made quite clear in Gaudy Night when Harriet goes back to the reunion. She's cut herself off from her Oxford friends to move with Philip and his circle. These London friends have had quite a different education and background from Harriet. Any literary references would be to daring avant-garde poetry, or so-and-so's latest play. Certainly not Shakespeare or Donne. And probably not at all.

[alkari.livejournal.com]

But in those days, daring avant-garde poetry would often involve French anyway. Don't forget that French was more widely taught in terms of even general education back then, not just in terms of university courses. And an avant-garde poet would be very likely to use the odd French or Latin term (probably incorrectly), especially if it made the poetry completely incomprehensible to ordinary readers. In those circles, one cannot possibly be both trendily avant-garde and understandable: the terms are mutually exclusive! :p

[alkari.livejournal.com]

Curse you, Ros!! *g* Instead of doing paperwork or housework or something else productive, I have now spent the whole afternoon re-reading 'Gaudy Night'.