I filled out your survey! Of course, I don't really count because not only do I get the British references non-Brits don't get, I get the British references other Brits don't get!
Actually, there are loads of English woman living in Sydney. I know a depressingly large number of them. However, if she is writing fiction to post on LJ, I can guarantee she is not me.
I don't think you should explain British references. That's far too clumsy. If someone asks in the comments, then that's the time to explain. If the Americans don't get it, tough. I'm sure most of them missed the significance of Total Darkness Powder (in HBP) being imported from Peru but I thought that was one of the most brilliant parts of the whole book so "So What?"
Thank you! For being dim, I mean. I've enjoyed that one for a long time. Not you being dim, obviously, but it's nice to get some bright company in the not-getting-the-jokes department.
I'd think long and hard about writing fanfic for any series set in the present day outside the UK. The one time I did it was only a very short humour piece, and djinanna was kind enough to American military-pick in the comments, for which I was most grateful.
For some reason I think I'd be more willing to write, say, Gone With The Wind fic because at least that way I'm not going to open up a nest of worms by misdescribing someone's everyday life. Well, I might piss off Civil War re-enactors, I suppose.
I was going to add 'but if I was writing Gone With The Wind fic and knew that someone on my friends list was a Civil War re-enactor, I'd probably be bothering them with questions throughout' but then I realised that the problem with this kind of thing isn't so much in the questions the foreign writer knows need asking, but the ones they don't know need asking. See about every fifth post on hp_britglish for details.
I don't think I've ever had anyone complaining about my stories being too British. (In this I think one of my trolls has missed a trick. Maybe her next persona could come from somewhere outside the UK?) A New Zealand reader did pick me up on a couple of things about Daisy, but since Daisy was a NZ character in the UK I was, again, very grateful for that.
There was one fic I read where the aim seemed to be to give the reader an experience not un-akin to that of going to the souvenir shop in a historic house and buying a thimble shaped like a thatched cottage and a novelty tea-towel, but the writer was American. I can see that it would be very annoying to have people assume that all fic set over here was intended for that purpose, though I don't think that's what blamebrampton is arguing.
Yes, I would, too. I once wrote an HP story with an American Mary-Sue as the main character and, even though I was actually living in the US at the time, I was conscious at every stage of how wrong I could be getting it. My American beta reader had a lot of fun correcting it for me.
My feeling is that there is no way to get it right as a foreigner (in whichever direction) but by far the best way to do a good job is to have someone of the right nationality read the whole thing. They'll spot the things you never thought to ask about.
When I first read blamebrampton's post and poll, I thought that was what she seemed to be arguing for, but actually in conversation she was clearly not. Did you ever read any of that dreadful Draco/Hermione fic that involved one long tedious description of the woman's research about quaint Oxford traditions after another? I think it may have scarred me for life.
I think I did once see a review on FF.net from an American teenager claiming that it would be better for a British writer to use American terms so that the readers could understand. I think she was pretty firmly squashed.
Yes, I agree with you totally about beta-readers, though I'm not sure how good I'd be about practicing what I preached.
What are your feelings about people attempting to write their fic in British / Canadian / Australian / American / delete as appropriate English when they're writing in foreign fandoms, out of interest? It doesn't bother me at all if people talk about 'the color of Harry's scarf', or whatever, though I know for some people it's on a level with Ginny going out and riding a broom clad in a vest and pants.
I generally don't mind about the spelling, either. In fact, having spent two years correcting my academic writing to US English, I find myself sometimes utterly at a loss to know how to spell words properly at all now. I had to look up 'fulfil' yesterday, just to convince myself that it really didn't need two l's.
Sometimes I don't even mind about the other stuff. I'll giggle at the pants (Draco in leather pants is something I'll always find funny, no matter how many times I see it). But part of me feels that these writers are entitled to have their play in the sandpit too. And if they're well-written (and sometimes even if they're not), I'll read them and enjoy them for what they are.
I think what irritates me most are those things where someone has obviously tried to get it right but just not quite managed it. People going to the loo for a shower, for instance. Or having scones for breakfast. Or eating shepherds pie for every single meal. Or speaking in mock cockney. It's like the girl with the Missing First Letters. Obviously she thought she was reproducing the French accent. Only she failed utterly and hilariously.
And why shouldn't people go to the loo for a shower? Don't you guys (I mean umm... umm... gender-neutral people) have bidet's in England? (I mean Uk. Or GB. Or GB&NI. Or...) *g*
Obviously, I need to use more smileys in my posts. People have started taking me way too seriously. (Although, washing one's... embarrassing bits at a bidet is still a types of showering - just b/c the water comes up, instead of down, it's no reason to dismiss the procedure - seriously! <- not, not really :-):-):-))
Ah, I think that's because posts made over a certain time limit - two weeks, possibly? - ago don't appear on the friends page, and we've had a posting hiatus because of us both being busy in the run-up to Christmas. It will return!
The worst I came across was a writer at SQ being told by her SQ beta to Americanise her story (in particular in reference to talking about Colin Creevey's muggle schooling). Totally ridiculous and a beta reader should have known better.
but then I realised that the problem with this kind of thing isn't so much in the questions the foreign writer knows need asking, but the ones they don't know need asking
That’s true, and I admire people for persevering. It’s the failure to get it right within canon that annoys me. A US student doesn’t need to know that British schools don’t have “extra credit” when we know the Hogwarts curriculum doesn’t (after all, if it did, Hermione would be doing it). There’s an otherwise good fic in which Lord Peter Wimsey affectionately calls Harriet “missus”. I am only assume that she thinks this a cute-sounding British endearment, and hasn’t considered that a man who has spent 5+ years trying to persuade a woman that if she marries him her identity need not be wholly subsumed in his, might not think this a good choice of word (notwithstanding that Harriet isn’t a Mrs anyway.) She could get that from canon without ever having to know that it is also the wrong class and the wrong part of the country.
I completely agree that not getting the canon-picking right is a much more serious failure than not getting the Brit-picking right. There are times when you just want to scream at people to read the damn books.
In my calmer moments, I try to remember that some of the Brit-pick errors are the result of American writers having read the American editions of the books in the first place, and thus it really isn't their fault.
Especially when in the film of OotP, Umbridge says students can join the Inquisitorial Squad for "extra credit". If the film makers can't get it right, why should fanfic writers.
I'd like to combine answers in your poll. I love the Britishness of your and other writers' stories, but I do sometimes feel there's things I don't quite get. Often it is easy to work out from the context of the story, sometimes I wonder what's going on because it doesn't makes any sense to me (can't say that's happened in your stories, though), I rarely Google it, often I ask in the comments.
Regarding detailed descriptions of British life, it all depends on how it's done. It can be tedious and distracting and it can be fun and interesting and increase my enjoyment of the story. Never felt it was patronising, though. Maybe I've not read enough fanfiction?
Regarding detailed descriptions of British life, it all depends on how it's done. It can be tedious and distracting and it can be fun and interesting and increase my enjoyment of the story.
That's to do with the quality of the writing. Detailed descriptions are usually dull, whether they are of British life or of what clothes and make-up Mary-Sue wore that day, because they are usually irrelevant to the story. There needs to be a point to them as well as being well-written etc, forhtem not to be a distraction.
Yes, and I tend to just drop the story if it's not well written. Some are terribly dull with their descriptions of everything, while others sneak those descriptions in and it makes the story more entertaining and paints a more vivid picture.
My husband is steadily working his way through the Patrick O'Brian series, which is about a naval captain in 19th century Britain. He not only uses Britishisms, he uses 19th century naval Britishisms, and 19th century grammar and speech mannerisms. He explains none of them.
The first book is apparently trial by fire - hubby was googling several times per page. If you get past that - apparently enriching your vocabulary greatly in the process, the series becomes quite enjoyable. Hubby says he likes it precisely b/c O'Briens writes in this age-authentic style, keeps his readers on their toes, and never patronizes them. Total immersion in that era.
For myself, I tried reading it, but didn't particularly like the style. It wasn't the Britishisms, though.
It always amuses/frustrates me that this attitude is so one-way. If Americans don't have to explain all their Americanisms in American books and stories, why pick on the poor Brits to have to explain their culture and expressions?!! After all, WE are supposed to read US books and understand that a car tire is actually a tyre, etc, and that yes, men can wear jumpers. As an Aussie, I don't expect the Brits to have to explain things in any detail - but then, I 'get' most of the references anyway.
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Actually, there are loads of English woman living in Sydney. I know a depressingly large number of them. However, if she is writing fiction to post on LJ, I can guarantee she is not me.
I don't think you should explain British references. That's far too clumsy. If someone asks in the comments, then that's the time to explain. If the Americans don't get it, tough. I'm sure most of them missed the significance of Total Darkness Powder (in HBP) being imported from Peru but I thought that was one of the most brilliant parts of the whole book so "So What?"
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Aargh! I have only just go that! *headdesks in shame*
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For some reason I think I'd be more willing to write, say, Gone With The Wind fic because at least that way I'm not going to open up a nest of worms by misdescribing someone's everyday life. Well, I might piss off Civil War re-enactors, I suppose.
I was going to add 'but if I was writing Gone With The Wind fic and knew that someone on my friends list was a Civil War re-enactor, I'd probably be bothering them with questions throughout' but then I realised that the problem with this kind of thing isn't so much in the questions the foreign writer knows need asking, but the ones they don't know need asking. See about every fifth post on
I don't think I've ever had anyone complaining about my stories being too British. (In this I think one of my trolls has missed a trick. Maybe her next persona could come from somewhere outside the UK?) A New Zealand reader did pick me up on a couple of things about Daisy, but since Daisy was a NZ character in the UK I was, again, very grateful for that.
There was one fic I read where the aim seemed to be to give the reader an experience not un-akin to that of going to the souvenir shop in a historic house and buying a thimble shaped like a thatched cottage and a novelty tea-towel, but the writer was American. I can see that it would be very annoying to have people assume that all fic set over here was intended for that purpose, though I don't think that's what
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My feeling is that there is no way to get it right as a foreigner (in whichever direction) but by far the best way to do a good job is to have someone of the right nationality read the whole thing. They'll spot the things you never thought to ask about.
When I first read
I think I did once see a review on FF.net from an American teenager claiming that it would be better for a British writer to use American terms so that the readers could understand. I think she was pretty firmly squashed.
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What are your feelings about people attempting to write their fic in British / Canadian / Australian / American / delete as appropriate English when they're writing in foreign fandoms, out of interest? It doesn't bother me at all if people talk about 'the color of Harry's scarf', or whatever, though I know for some people it's on a level with Ginny going out and riding a broom clad in a vest and pants.
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Sometimes I don't even mind about the other stuff. I'll giggle at the pants (Draco in leather pants is something I'll always find funny, no matter how many times I see it). But part of me feels that these writers are entitled to have their play in the sandpit too. And if they're well-written (and sometimes even if they're not), I'll read them and enjoy them for what they are.
I think what irritates me most are those things where someone has obviously tried to get it right but just not quite managed it. People going to the loo for a shower, for instance. Or having scones for breakfast. Or eating shepherds pie for every single meal. Or speaking in mock cockney. It's like the girl with the Missing First Letters. Obviously she thought she was reproducing the French accent. Only she failed utterly and hilariously.
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That’s true, and I admire people for persevering. It’s the failure to get it right within canon that annoys me. A US student doesn’t need to know that British schools don’t have “extra credit” when we know the Hogwarts curriculum doesn’t (after all, if it did, Hermione would be doing it). There’s an otherwise good fic in which Lord Peter Wimsey affectionately calls Harriet “missus”. I am only assume that she thinks this a cute-sounding British endearment, and hasn’t considered that a man who has spent 5+ years trying to persuade a woman that if she marries him her identity need not be wholly subsumed in his, might not think this a good choice of word (notwithstanding that Harriet isn’t a Mrs anyway.) She could get that from canon without ever having to know that it is also the wrong class and the wrong part of the country.
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In my calmer moments, I try to remember that some of the Brit-pick errors are the result of American writers having read the American editions of the books in the first place, and thus it really isn't their fault.
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Regarding detailed descriptions of British life, it all depends on how it's done. It can be tedious and distracting and it can be fun and interesting and increase my enjoyment of the story. Never felt it was patronising, though. Maybe I've not read enough fanfiction?
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That's to do with the quality of the writing. Detailed descriptions are usually dull, whether they are of British life or of what clothes and make-up Mary-Sue wore that day, because they are usually irrelevant to the story. There needs to be a point to them as well as being well-written etc, forhtem not to be a distraction.
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The first book is apparently trial by fire - hubby was googling several times per page. If you get past that - apparently enriching your vocabulary greatly in the process, the series becomes quite enjoyable. Hubby says he likes it precisely b/c O'Briens writes in this age-authentic style, keeps his readers on their toes, and never patronizes them. Total immersion in that era.
For myself, I tried reading it, but didn't particularly like the style. It wasn't the Britishisms, though.
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